Excellent comments! When you put together all that God has spoken about what He wants to do in our lives, a wonderful picture emerges. It’s hard to imagine why any Adventist would oppose OGR. The Truth shines so brightly now. How can it be mistaken for darkness?

The last thing that the devil wants to see happen is for the Holy Spirit to fill the Church, for this will mean his undoing. It should be expected that he will try to bring opposition against any effort to receive the Promise of Christ. Ellen White predicted that some people in the Church would think the Latter Rain to be dangerous, and oppose it.

Amen, I have been truly blessed in studying the objectives of OGR. It rings with truth.

If we study the difference between a true and false revival there are several points that stand out.

1. Both have prayers, and preaching but one points to Jesus as our righteousness and calls for surrender to Christ in genuine heartfelt repentance and reformation.
The other, though it also uses the name of Jesus, focuses on physical manifestations, which are often induced by such things as loud music and excited, extended, hysterical preaching that works up the emotions, or uses other methods to alter the state of the mind. It does not require solemn deep repentance or soul searching in quiet individual prayer surrending self to the Lord that His Will may be done.

And yes, it is true that the devil does not WANT us to have the real experience.

As we read:
“”There is nothing that Satan fears so much as that the people of God shall clear the way by removing every hindrance, so that the Lord can pour out His Spirit upon a languishing church and an impenitent congregation. If Satan had his way, there would never be another awakening, great or small, to the end of time. But we are not ignorant of his devices. It is possible to resist his power. When the way is prepared for the Spirit of God, the blessing will come. Satan can no more hinder a shower of blessing from descending upon God’s people than he can close the windows of heaven that rain cannot come upon the earth. Wicked men and devils cannot hinder the work of God, or shut out His presence from the assemblies of His people, if they will, with subdued, contrite hearts, confess and put away their sins, and in faith claim His promises. Every temptation, every opposing influence, whether open or secret, may be successfully resisted, “not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts” (Zech. 4:6). {1SM 124.2}

Oh — the second point I wanted to share:

2. The false revival places the Spirit above the Bible and God’s Law as if the Holy Spirit would lead in ways apart from Holy scripture and away from God’s law.
The true revival knows the Holy Spirit inspired holy men to write the scriptures and that He Who inspired the scriptures will bring home the truths of God’s Word and law to the honest seeker.

I had heard from a friend the concern of pentacostalism, being slain in the spirit much the same way as the charismatic movement “receives the Spirit”. How do we show the genuineness of this movement to those who have these concerns?

Dear DeepWaters, by stressing out that ANY genuine revival goes hand in hand with the law of God. One CANNOT expect to be revived without obedience.
Lately I heard a marvellous sermon on Advent Hope by Stephen Bohr: The Holy and the Profane. Many Christians offer God prayers in disobedience, because like the sons of Aaron they offer their incense with strange fire. They think that God doesn’t care as long as the intensions are good. Well God sees our good intensions, but He doesn’t want mere ceremony en good spirits. He wants our all, and that is sometimes more than our nature wants to give.
The Holy Spirit is the true fire of God, and it will not be mingled with our own favours. We cannot expect God to move our way when we are willing to give Him only what we want, what is acceptable to us.
The charismatic movement is basically very emotional: if it feels good, it must be good and God’s love is big enough to forgive. Yes, God’s love and mercy are great, but forgiveness is only possible when there is a law that points out the transgression. And God’s mercy is more than forgiveness, it is power to overcome transgression!
I think that what makes our church different is that it teaches that the righteousness of Christ is our only hope for being a true Christian. It is His doing, for by ourselves we cannot please God in a proper way. Our church teaches that we may go to Jesus for forgiveness, but also and equally important , for power to be Overcomers. That’s Grace, That’s Love Divine, That’s Power of the Spirit that will last till Jesus comes!
I hope this is a little answer to you. (Ingrid Wijngaarde)

One of the difference I see is that many think of the Holy Spirit as A POWER to be used or felt rather than the presence of God.

The Holy Spirit, though He is all powerful possessing the fullness of the godhead, is NOT just a power, He is the very presence of God.

He is the One who woos us, and works in our lives to bring us to repentance and to create in us a longing for righteousness.

The Holy Spirit is “a teacher of righteousness”

From A.T.Jones Sermon #9 1893
“Joel 2:23d verse, says “Be glad, then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God’ for he Has given you the former rain, moderately,” now turn and read what is in the margin. “A teacher of righteousness.” He has given you “a teacher of righteousness.”

As we respond to the leading of the Holy Spirit and pray for more of His presence He will come more fully into our lives.

The penticostal idea is different — it looks to the Holy Spirit simply as a power (really quite a pagan concept) to make us powerful, to be commanded and used by us so we can be powerful or rise to ecstatic feelings. It doesn’t regard the Holy Spirit so much as the teacher of righteousness, nor as one who convicts of sin, and righteousness and judgement.

Dear Dedication 12, I am not pastor, but this is what I understand:
Jesus Himself said:
But ye shall receive POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth (Acts 1:8); How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power (Acts 10:38); The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue (2 Sam 23:2); he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8); That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man (Ephes 3:16) and according to the power that worketh in us He - the Lord – can do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think for us (vs 20).

Being a member of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit has – just like Jesus and the Father - more than one aspect: He gives power to be a true witness of Christ, He is indeed teacher, but also reprover of sin, He is counsellor and interpreter of our prayers, He is consoler and comforter, He led Jesus into the wilderness (with power!) to stand against temptation and surely helped Him to accept the cup in Gethsemane, He gives visions of God and he helped the Bible writers to speak and write for the Lord, He strengthens us in the inner man. Just as Jesus, who is: Saviour, Redeemer, Avocate, Lamb of God, Atoner, Son of men, Almighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, Bread, Water, Fire, “glory and majesty, dominion and power” (Revel 1:6) –All in all!!

No this is not the Pentecostal power, but it is power alright. For He makes us understand the power of the gospel and protect us from having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof (2 Tim 3:5). For us sinners by nature the Holy spirit is the provision of God to Overcome! Indeed, not by our own might, nor by our own power, “but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts” (Zech. 4:6).

The gospel is powerful enough to change us unto the likeliness of God. But only when we are led by His Spirit, who teaches us everything we ought to know of Him and His glory and who gives us strength to abide by our decision to be His for ever! For by ourselves we do not even know where to begin to worship God let alone to live a godly life. (Ingrid wijngaarde, iwijngaarde@hotmail.com)

The Holy Spirit is to use us, we do not use Him. That is where the pentecostal folks are confused. Also, if you look all through the New Testament, you will not find any indication that the Holy Spirit can be felt. At no time did the early church experience physical sensations from the Holy Spirit.

It is strange that the phrase “slain in the spirit” is used so much, since the Bible says that “the Spirit gives life“.

“By their fruits you will know them”. This is also true of revival movements. Is the Fruit of the Spirit seen in the lives of those involved? Or just apparent manifestations of the “gifts” of the Spirit. All true revivals include a reformation of the life.

Ellen White also pointed out that the Holy Spirit will never reveal Himself “in a bedlam of noise”.

I hope these points can help assure people that we are on the right track.

Is it dangerous? Yes it is danderous. Read Early Writings page 65&66.And you will know how dangerous it is.

I think Adventist dont know who the Holy Spirit is when they accepted the Trinity doctrine during the 1980 GC Session at Dallas Texas.

Its better for Adventist to learn what is the real teaching of their pionners regarding Godhead.

Dont be offended by me, i think this is a counterfeit revival predicted by the prophet before the coming of the true one.

“Are we hoping to see the whole church revived? That time will NEVER come. {RH, March 22, 1887 par. 2}

So are you saying that the “true” revival will not involve praying for the Latter Rain or the infilling of the Holy Spirit?

This OGR effort is based on the plain statements of inspiration, not just on the doctrine of the trinity. We can see in scripture how the Holy Spirit worked in the past (whatever He or It is), and we have been instructed as to how He will operate in the last days. We are also told that we should pray for the Latter Rain.

Of the fact that the whole church will never be revived we are well aware. This does not negate the fact that there will come a revival all the same. Our main concern should be that we are part of it.

I’am very sorry Hpen, you feel this way. I scanned the reference pages you mentioned of Early Writings and didn’t find any reference to revival but only to the mark of the Beast, Sabbath keepers and the remnant.
What OGR wants to accomplish is to get God’s people ready for the difficult times ahead, people who love God with all their heart, soul, mind and might and one another and that includes being obedient to every precept too and the bringing in of God’s flock from outside. How this could be wrong, be the work of the enemy of God? Jesus pointed out that we ought to be praying and never cease, because God is more wiling to give us His Spirit than parents good gifts to their children.
I’m always sorry to see brethren putting themselves aside from the church as if the church itself is Babylon. Jesus still walks among the chandlers and God leads a people and not individuals! And when He calls an individual it is always for the benefit of the people. The bride of Christ is the church, never a church member. When we stop to be meek to and patient with each other, help and encourage each other, we stop to be a part of the church and the church dies! Let’s not put ourselves apart from the church as if our place in heaven is secured.
A counterfeit revival is false because it calls the people to rely on God’s grace WITHOUT dedication, repentance, humiliation, putting away of sins and unity among brethren. I do not see this in OGR, or maybe my eyes are blinded?
As for your comment on hoping the whole church to be revived … We MUST call the whole church to revival, to turn back to the Lord, to grasp that commission and do what we ought to do, although we KNOW from God’s own Word that it is only a remnant that will be saved (also see the last two paragraphs Early Writings p. 66!! - http://www.gilead.net/egw/books2/earlywritings/ewindex.html). I heard that even EGW mentioned somewhere about 5% of the SDA’s - a frightful number!!
But who are we to point out the true remnant? We’d better make a sincere effort towards unity in our churches so that as many as possible are prepared and could enjoy the Glory of God. How can we expect people to join us if we show them that the gospel of Christ is unable to change us?
I always encouraged by the story of Jeremiah: he stood his ground although the city around him literally fell apart. He stood his ground for God. And God sent a message to Baruch his scribe, not to envy Jeremiahs position and to strive for great things. Being a scribe is where God wanted him to be and in that seemingly insignificant task he honoured the Lord! Are WE standing our ground for God? Are we discouragers or encouragers? Do we honour God with what we do, even how insignificant? Yes, sometimes it’s is better to hide away. Jeremiah and Baruch had to do that when Jehoiakim tore and burned the scroll and wanted them dead. But NEVER scorn the people of God. If we count ourselves among the remnant, please remember that we too were once sinners. Help others to stand instead of taking their hope of victory in Christ away. Even in our fallible church. As I said in my piece above: Him that thinketh to stand, see that he doesn’t fall. (ingrid wijngaarde)

“To the Law and the Testimony, if they speake not according to this, it is because their is no light in them…
And by their fruits you will know them!
The brethern leading out in this OGR speak accordingly and although I do not know some of them personally, from what I see and do know they have the fruits too! And also the many other leading brethern that are joining OGR that I know and see are also genuine Christians. I have no doubt that this is of the Lord and it is needed, timely and overdue on our part.

The Other thing we have to be very, very careful of, is not to call the Spirit of our Loving Holy God, that of another spirit, that is the unpardonalbe sin! I think we should talk less and pray more and especially for those in doubt and not wanting to participate.

Also, I believe if we have received the early rain by trusting in Christ, then we know that we have His Spirit, His Love and we long for more to be able to be complete to refelect His character of Love more and go to all the world with this gospel of Love and Truth, moviated by this love-given to us in greater measure by the Holy Spirit to Light up the world with the Glory-Love of God-reflecting the character of Christ more fully!

Matthew

What can we learn about the importance of “dialogue” from the design of the center piece in the tabernacle?

I once did a study of the Hebrew word for “cherub.” The ultimate root that I found for that Hebrew word means “dialogue.”

When two (or more) people are having a dialogue with their minds eyes being focused upon the Law of God, the Chichinah, God’s presence, will be lodged in their midst.

Now, isn’t that also the essence of Yeshua’s teaching per Matthew 18:20?:

“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

- - -

OCR “dangerous?”

If I were to withdraw myself from such a dialogue because I felt it was “dangerous” and because of my fears, which god would I be following? Who is the god of fear?

On the other hand, what is the nature of most every dialogue at the outset? Is it all truth? Is everyone correct and perfect in their thinking from the very beginning? If they were, what would be the point of having the dialogue? How interesting is a dialogue where the same thing is being parroted over and over again but without any real progress or growth? Are we to walk the walk along the Way or are we to remain “always the same” in accord with the Roman Catholic motto “Semper aedem?”

Are these thoughts applicable to the above posts re OGR, or are they not?- - - -

What is “the Trinity” not?

It is certainly a well established fact that neither the bible nor Ellen White is ever using the term “Trinity.” A thorough study of that word makes it plain that it represents the very opposite of the Holy Spirit, namely Semiramis, Tammuz, and Baccus. Of those three only Tammuz is mentioned in the bible (cf. Ezekiel 8:14.) According to the legend, Baccus was the son of the first two, but after Tammuz was killed, Semiramis married her son Baccus. Of course, Baccus is best known as the god of vine and drunkenness. Thus I agree that we must each do what we can towards cleaning up our language such that we will cease mixing up the One God of Truth with the god of prostitution, death, drunkenness, and self-destruction.- - - -

“A counterfeit revival?”

Accordingly “a counterfeit revival” can hardly be recognized by the presence of vestiges of erroneous teaching, can it? What characterizes “a counterfeit revival” is not that but is instead an unwillingness to go to the best available source in regards to each and every important specific being studied and an unwillingness to change one’s mind and actions accordingly. Or, for that matter, allowing one’s fears to keep one from participating in important dialogues leading each and all of us closer to the

Kingdom of
God.

If, when, and what each of us is willing to learn is something that is indeed up to each one among us individually according as we allow our Saviour to lead us. Yes, our Saviour is leading and guiding each one of us individually along the Way according to our individual willingness and readiness to be led. - - -

What is Babylon - and what is not?

God’s church consists of all those willing to be led by our Saviour and yes, considering each and all of the individual members in God’s true church God is indeed leading His People as an army of soldiers in a very orderly manner, even though like Elijah each of those soldiers may at times feel as though he or she is the only one left among God’s true People.

It makes little or no sense to say that any visible church membership consisting of living men and women is or is not God’s church or
Babylon. The bloodless and formal fictions created by men and known by miscellaneous names, whether churches, States, or otherwise, are always brainless and bloodless, and should certainly always remain subject to our naming them as best we can according to their teachings. If such teachings are correctly labeled by the term
Babylon, then so be it. How meaningful is it to maintain an ancient holy name when describing an entity that no longer is being properly and correctly characterized by such a name? Why should this principle not apply equally to entities formerly known by the names
Israel, Christian, and Seventh-day Adventist? Or does the meaning of those words and names change merely because an entity formerly so named apostasies and changes into something no longer appropriately so named?